For me, the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that Frank thinks that I'M delusional, that Dems are delusion, and that he sees the facts and truth. So the question is (here and all across America): how do we bridge this divide, when each side thinks the other side is delusional, and has an avalanche of "facts" (or "alternative facts") to back it our positions?
The discussion here clearly demonstrates this dilemma.
So how do we find any solutions to very real problems when each side has a different vision of reality, and each side thinks the other side is delusional?
It's a stark dilemma facing the country as a future-determining election bears down on us.
Awe... so sad for lefties, liberals and Democrats that their reliable establishment Republicans are no longer hoisting the tired old lie of Trump causing a Jan-6 insurrection. Yeah, those bearded construction workers and old ladies with their flags and signs where sure a threat to take over the country. It is fascinating reviewing this from the outside and getting educated in the process of media-inflamed mass psychosis. The failure of people to accept that the old GOP establishment Regime lie is over is gonna cause another We Will Resist insurrection and murderous leftist national riots again where poor neighborhoods are burned to the ground!
I think it's worthwhile looking carefully at Frank's post. We've all seen scores of times the many videos of violence on January 6. Frank has recast this as "bearded construction workers and old ladies with flags and signs." Then he asserts that those in the GOP who were like Cheney or 2021 McConnell were creating a "GOP establishment Regime lie" that the January 6 violence occurred.
How has Frank reconfigured reality? He starts by denying the violence actually occurred (I don't know whether he's ever actually seen the videos--if so, perhaps he's decided they are deep fakes), and then dismisses the Republicans who acknowledge the facts by deriding them ("establishment Regime") and imagining they had a project to induce "mass psychosis." This is precisely the way conspiracy theories work: they select which facts to accept or deny and invent a reality that will confirm the explanatory theory they have constructed. You can't break into it. It is a worldview perpetually reconfiguring itself to confirm its own reality and deny known facts, *no matter how thoroughly they are documented.* Those facts are dismissed as "fake" a priori, with the explanatory theory reconfigured in any way necessary to support that assertion. What Trump grasped from the outset was that he could build on his celebrity popularity only if he created a reality of "alternative facts" (a term his own press spokesperson coined) and re-labeled actual facts as "fake news." It worked!
Frank also deploys the "both sides" approach, gesturing to the 2020 Floyd riots. The Floyd demonstrations did indeed result in violent riots that no one should condone in several large cities, including Minneapolis and Seattle. It's important never to deny or minimize those events. But they had nothing to do with January 6, and January 6, 2021 did *not* result in "leftwing national riots." There is no connection. What Frank calls the "GOP establishment regime lie" concerned events that happened six months after the summer 2020 post-demonstration riots. Frank is simply throwing up anything he thinks has some form of resonance to obscure the issue, which is the sort of behavior we expect from those who have become invested in a baseless conspiracy theory.
This is the sort of thinking *all* of us engage in when our most cherished beliefs are seriously challenged. It's not Frank's fault. He has been wooed by a cult, fallen into its dogma, and has no way out. None of us here in an online forum can possibly reach him, but we can learn from him.
I see three new replies have appeared while I've been typing. I'm going to bet that at least two try to argue with Frank. *There is nothing to be gained.* But remember, there but for the grace of God go we: we're all subject to this type of group delusion--and I haven't the slightest doubt that Frank thinks all of us are the ones suffering group delusion. That's why there's no way in for us, no way to get him out. Only someone he knows and trusts might have a chance, and then only if Frank's basic intelligence had already begun to nag him about the absurdity of the ideas he has adopted, or the bizarre behavior of those he sees as his allies.
... which means that a) if Trump wins, the whole nation falls under the leadership of a delusional regime built on lies, or b) if Biden wins, half the nation will believe they've been "robbed" which sets the stage for more violence. Both scary scenarios, and I don't see any mass-deprogramming in sight.
The only hope I do see will come from a massive Blue Wave that wins enough branches of gov't (state and federal) to maintain law and order; because a narrow squeaker win by Dems will immediately be challenged. But, as of today, I don't see a Blue-nami in the forecast.
Except - if abortion becomes the ballot question, and women (the largest voting block) find common ground and motivation to sweep away the regressive forces that threaten their physical freedoms.
LOL. Did I deny that there was violence? Absolutely not. But no guns or knives. And only a minority of hotheads where violent. The rest were just protestors and the Democrat lawfare system abused many of them. The only gun violence was a Democrat cop friend of Nancy Pelosi killing an unarmed small female veteran. Compared to the Democrat-sanctioned violence from the proceeding 18 months of BLM and Antifa it is laughable how you elite coastal and big city liberals keep up the charade of Jan-6 being anything other than a justified protest over election irregularities (of which there were many) with the standard number of hotheads going too far.
But "insurrection"? LOL. You people think you are serious, but you demonstrate only irrational hysteria.
Just look at the current antisemitic Democrat campus brat violence against cops, pushing down barriers and breaking into buildings to occupy them. Oohhh that must be an INSURRECTION!" The hypocrisy is so transparent and blatant I make the excuse for you that your media feeds are propaganda keeping you blind to reality. Otherwise there is no excuse and a vile explanation is warranted.
By the way, I have no sympathy for pro-Palestinian protesters who use violent tactics, but I haven't seen any assaults against cops. Had they, though, it would not be an "insurrection," because it would not have been an attempt to overthrow a government. The Jan. 6 violence was an attempt to nullify the election of a new government executive and force the installation of a different government executive, that's why it's referred to as an "insurrection," rather than just a violent protest. When "the standard number of hotheads" set a police car on fire it's a crime, and a serious one--liberals should never excuse it. When "the standard number of hotheads" (and a lot more than in most or all of the local Floyd riots) break into the Capitol and search for legislators to threaten that's an insurrection, and no one should wave that away either.
By the way, where I live the pro-Palestinian demonstrators were entirely peaceful, as even law enforcement officials agree. Nevertheless, the state police wrestled many to the ground, injuring several, arresting them on charges that were uniformly dismissed by the courts. The captain in charge justified the arrests by saying their protest constituted "hate speech," which he asserted was "not protected by the First Amendment." (So much for law enforcement understanding of the Constitution.) At UCLA the violence was enacted against the student protesters whole police stood and watched. If you look at Columbia you'll draw one set of lessons; at UCLA you'll draw another. It's not really germane to the Jan. 6 matter, but it does illustrate how complex our politics and civic behavior has become.
I live in a liberal college town in a blue state, but have a business in a rural part of the state and have extended family in the Midwest where my parents are from and I was from until age 14.
I have many, many friends on both sides of politics. I talk to most of them. I am someone that got to my positions in life never thinking I was the smartest guy in the room, never imagining that I know everything, and always assuming I have blind spots and can learn.
It is why I subscribe to publications that lean both left and right. When my community of liberals takes a position different than mine, I want to understand what I am missing.
Now I have a PHD in liberal studies and my conclusion is that liberals in general engage in half circle thinking... incomplete rational thought. They run through arguments that deliver good feelings and then stop doing math. They cannot accept a rational choice that makes them feel bad... unless forced and then they become resentful even if the choice is proven accurate.
My experience with conservatives and pklitics is that they are more pragmatic, more logical, less prone to allowing their emotions drive their choices.
I think some of this difference has been explained well by Haidt.
However I am bored talking to people that have my views. I still hold out hope that I engage with a liberal that can talk about his/her political ideas and explain why they are better than mine.
But today liberals are just full of spite, invective and vitriol calling everyone that does not agree with them the most vile of names and raging to character assassinate or worse anyone that failes to frog march to the drum beat of their radical pagan ideology.
I might be open to that radical pagan ideology if it demonstrated success and real progress. But just using my college town... the liberals have made it a mess.
Part of the problem, on both sides, is the stereotyping (and demonizing) of each other. You aren't like all the other MAGAs, and I'm not like all the other Liberal/Dems.
We both see flaws and faults on both sides, but it's dangerous to generalize from our particular situations to the whole nation.
I believe the former "fringes" on both sides are getting way too much attention (and power) while that great swath of "normal people in the middle" just want to get on with their lives and see improvements for their families.
Whatever happened on Jan.6 or BLM riots or congressional hearings doesn't reflect or represent the whole country - you and I wouldn't have participated in any of these events, and I think you and I are more representative of the wider population than the bone-heads on each side.
Which leads a lot of folks to 3rd party candidates, but they can't win and will severely affect the final outcome, so they aren't representative either.
In the end it comes down to rational people choosing the lesser evil. In my case, for all of Biden's flaws, I see him as a far lesser evil than the narcissistic insatiably needy Trump.
Put another way, I think Biden still has hopes to make the country a more perfect union, while Trump is ONLY in it for himself.
Here is my problem condensed. My professional background is solving big organizational problems. I have a business degree specialized in organizational behavior. I have certifications in project management. I often can see the clear path to a future state if progress.
I can also often see the negative future consequences for many policies and decisions. When I talk to and work with Republican controlled communities, there is much more alignment with these things... more interest in discussing the... more head nodding in meetings... more pragmatism and real math. In my liberal community many of the policies are damaging to the future. There is a weird scarcity mindset and stasis attitudes, while claiming progressive ideas that are really often destructive.
Of course there are corrupt and low capability politicians and voters in every community on both sides. But my view is that Democrats are broken. They are committed to burning down everything to retain power. Today I went to the grocery store when it opened at 7 am and the employees were waiting for the police to remove two homeless men camped in the entrance, one unconscious from a substance and another screaming at everyone. I left and drove to the city 15 minutes away that is run by Republicans. I went to Costco... the voters in the liberal city rejected it in their community even though they all drive there to shop. The tax base is too little. The roads and parks are not maintained. We have too few cops and with ordinances where they commit deal with all the homeless. The public schools are suffering enrollment drops because the voters will not allow enough housing development and young families cannot afford to live here, and there are few good jobs for young professionals except the university. The city council has a packed room to pass a condemnation of Israel, and to approve some new LGBT? commitment, but none of the fiscal problems get addresses except yet another sales or property tax supplemental attempt... when the city is already one of the highest taxed in the state.
The state has an insurance crisis along with a $70 billion budget deficit after having a $38 billion budget surplus 18 months ago. Prop 203 pushed by the Democrats to force auto insurers to comply with their liberal ideas chased away many of the insurers... and the took ALL of the insurance products with them.
I have a list a mile long of these types of bonehead policies and ideas that keep making things worse for the average resident... but apparently provide some juice to the feel-good addicted liberal brain.
My assessment over all the years dealing with all this is simple. Liberals have taken over the Democrat party and pursue Karen power... but they are wired as the least capable to make effective policy and decisions. They are emotional rather than pragmatic. We need liberals to soften hard policies of unfeeling Republicans, but their dominance of Democrat party is taking us all down.
I keep hoping to see real pragmatists in the Democrat hive, but it seems that there are none... they have all joined in the destructive cultural weirdness and private economy scarcity mindset and divisive overheated emotional reactions about everything.
The Jan.6 violence, the "fake electors" scheme, the guilty pleas of dozens of Trump's lawyers and advisors - is there no way you can acknowledge an organized attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?
To deny all that is to prove Robert's point - that Trump supporters are hopelessly lost in an echo chamber of re-affirming delusions. Wherever you get your "news", surely you have seen the real footage of Jan.6, which means you know what happened, but somehow can't admit it.
If you've seen the original (Broderick Crawford) movie of "All the King's Men" - story of self-made dictator of Louisiana Huey Long - someone asks a Judge how so many people can fall for Long's con, and the Judge says they believe him because "they want it to be true, and they can't admit they made a mistake."
"is there no way you can acknowledge an organized attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?"
Sure. Russiagate. The election shenanigans in swing state big city districts run by Democrats. The FBI and media lies about Hunter's laptop. The Jan-6 show trials. Nancy Pelosi refusing to allow the National Guard on Jan-6. but then after when old Joe was in place. The organized WE WILL RESIST marches. The lawfare cases against Trump from Democrat AGs in blue states (case that only came up because he is a threat to Democrat politics). The threats of court packing. The threats against SCOTUS judges. The Twitter Files and the Democrat censorship industrial complex. Yes, there is a ton of organized attempt to prevent peaceful transfer of power... and to corrupt and threaten democracy. It is all Democrat caused.
Just watch when Trump wins and the GOP takes back the legislature. You lefties will lose your minds and start protesting WE WILL RESIST... and violence will be justified then.
AW, please note that Frank can't respond on the "peaceful transfer of power" issue. There is no instance of Democrats using violence to block the transfer of power issue so we get a litany of examples that do not concern violence.
You have to remember that the Big Lie conspiracy theory holds that the Democrats subvert the transfer of power by secret means ("shenanigans," in Frank's terms--it was certainly the case in some Democratic cities 60 years ago, and, of course, routinely in the South for a century). If you buy into the conspiracy theory, everything in Frank's message makes sense: the Mueller investigation (which did not exonerate Trump), media downplaying of the laptop, the fiction about Pelosi and the National Guard (remember, fiction is just an "alternative fact" and every bit as valid as an actual fact), organized street protests, the brief discussion of adding SCOTUS seats--all of it is the moral (or actual) equivalent of the violent breach of the Capitol in an effort to force the legislature to disqualify the election results. And because *everything* the Democrats do can be cast in this light, no debunking can ever end it. Frank's arsenal of "evidence" is endless, and the MAGA spokespeople fantasize more of it every day. (Don't forget: Biden "tried to assassinate" Trump at Mar-a-Lago!!! The apophenic machine is like AI: it is an endless font of empty content meant to soothe subscribers.)
well, like Robert says, there's a lot we can learn from your posts, Frank.
You see your perspective clearly, and have gathered the evidence to support it. So you can't be wrong and always have the right answer. And you honestly believe what you're saying and believe you're on the right side. And a patriot. And a truth-teller.
But beware the cloak of infallibility!
No one is infallible, Frank. No one is beyond being wrong, mistaken, misled.
So, Frank, you're still living under the delusion that there was no violent attack on the Capitol on Jan.6? Just a peaceful walk-through - no broken windows, no deaths, no chants of Hang Mike Pence, no congressmen and senators hiding, no Josh Hawley running for his life?
Or: are you living under the delusion that it happened but it was all a false flag operation with Antifa and BLM and the FBI dressed up like MAGA?
They're mutually exclusive, so which delusion are you picking today?
As for "media-inflamed mass psychosis" - are you referring to FOX's endless "rigged election" lies fuelling MAGA-madness? Led by a certifiable psychopath who's got you all conned into a Trump Trance?
I dare you to take 5 minutes and take the "Is Trump a Psychopath?" test:
I don't watch Fox anything and I am a Trump supporter. Where do you think I am getting my biased MAGA information? I subscribe to your Substack. I read the NYT and LA Times.
Well you made my day, Frank! My substack in the same sentence as the NYT and LA Times. I've made the big time!
And by the way, you're always welcome here. I enjoy your comments. It's a civil conversation with no name calling (although Trump supporters are clearly delusional).
But we've both been through some serious medical challenges and we're still here alive and kicking, and banging the drum for what we believe is right.
So maybe it all comes down to an old Bob Dylan line:
"you're right from your side, and I'm right from mine
we're just one too many mornings, and a thousand miles behind."
Whoever wins, I hope America settles down into some kind of "normal" and we start dealing with (and solving!) the real issues.
So Abraham, do the actions of Micah Xavier Johnson and Stephan Cannon and a handful other other violent idiots define the entire BLM protest period, or are there always a handful of violence-prone idiots to almost every large gathering of people protesting what they see as injustice?
Maybe you think that white people should not be allowed to protest unless they are liberals?
I agree with the implications of Frank's comment here. Johnson's violence was prompted by ideology; Cannon's by simple greed. We need to distinguish between violence perpetrated by protesters and violence perpetrated by ordinary criminals who find the disruptions of protests a good theater for them to act.
The topic is the January 6 protests and Trump's role encouraging them. The majority of Jan. 6 protesters were not violent. But hundreds were, and they were violent in the context of the protests, attacking and beating police, vandalizing Capitol offices, and threatening members of congress and the Vice President as part of their protest. Trump, like many of us, watched these scenes unfold on television; unlike us, he had the power to stop the violence, and he knew it. He declined to do so. But Frank considers these facts to be a "GOP establishment Regime" lie. Frank's perfectly intelligent: he can see that in the case of the Floyd riots at least some of the violence had no connection to the demonstrations. But he cannot see that an example like Stephen Cannon has no relevance to the case. (Johnson's violence is also irrelevant, not because he was not ideologically motivated, but because he acted independently, without regard to the disruptions of a demonstration. Robert Bowers and Dylann Roof would be parallels on the Right.)
The Democrats have an entire industrial complex of government officials, media connections and a sea of NGOs that encourage protests. The GOP has never taken that approach and thus never developed the infrastructure. Trump never did encourage violence and is quoted encouraging a peaceful march and protest. But he did use his personal influence to motivate the crowd and some went too far.
Joe Biden does not have to do the same because he has the entire Democrat influence industry to do it for him.
So the comparison is unfair and frankly intellectually dishonest because I know you and others know better. You know that the Democrats can organize through their well established protest and riot network. And you don't get to excuse that those violent are somehow NOT YOUR BIDEN PEOPLE while claiming that those that got violent on Jan-6 ARE THOSE TRUMP PEOPLE! The evidence is that many of the trouble-makers were FBI plants and Democrat NGO plants (Soros money paid thugs).
Yeah, Soros and FBI plants are conspiracy theory stuff. Nothing to be done about them. But Frank is correct that Democratic-affiliated non-profits are far more likely to use organization of public protests as a method than GOP non-profits (although the Committee to Stop the Steal was a MAGA non-profit central to Jan. 6).
Because of the Floyd protests, Frank will always claim that the Democratic non-profits sponsor a "protest and riot" network. Just as the street riots of the late 1960s, the Rodney King riots, and the Ferguson BLM-related riots provided talking points (some legitimate) and conspiracy theory fodder to the Right, the Floyd protest riots came to completely overshadow the protests themselves. Having participated in civil rights street protests and early antiwar protests in the mid-1960s, I hate to say it but I think this form of protest is rarely a wise tactic for these reasons.
The tactical clumsiness of Democrats is well illustrated by the fact that George Soros has apparently expended billions of dollars in nefarious schemes to encourage lawless activity--so much so that almost everything Democrats do is secretly funded by him--and has really little to show for it, while Harlan Crow skillfully invested just a million or so in successfully suborning a SCOTUS justice with really productive results. We need to replace Soros with Democratic Crows! (And a few Democratic Kochs, too--the Heritage Foundation is the source of the other five Conservative justices.)
The list of those profiles is long! Do you, and does anyone, realize that the plan is to literally weaponize our citizenry who align themselves with Trump's "power" to provide excessive access to machine gunning down those who are rightfully elected? The Alito couple and the Thomas couple and those in Congress who've always been beyond the pale are salivating over the destruction of anyone standing in the way of their fascist belief system. And, Proud Boys, 3 %ters, etc...still all training.
Sorry, Abraham, but you're the first one I'm sharing this insight with. Horrific, but I calmly sense, the truth of their intent. Trump has been shaping this since way before his inaugural address about "American carnage." Many have been preparing for this "war" and "bloodbath" and we know the cast of characters. Putin has schooled him.
DK, that's why I started this site a couple years ago: to raise the alarm, to call a warning to the underlying psychology of Trump's MAGA movement. It's all been a prelude to fascism. I call it "neo"-fascism because it's new slogans and new flags and new leaders, but it all ends up in the same place: fear, intimidation, retribution and violence.
Only a massive Blue Wave in November can stop this ugly dangerous threat to America. The barbarians are at the gate, and the gate keepers are traitors.
Perilous times, but voters can (and must) save America in November.
don’t erase it, Valerie; express your outrage. The threat to democracy is real for those willing to see it. These Republican and MAGA cowards, lusting for power, are only in it for themselves. It’s time to call them out.
More important though, it’s time to get out the vote. Bigly.
welcome Adam. Frank is a founding father (so to speak) of this site, and though we differ 180° on most things, we agree 100% on having a civil discourse to at least try and understand where each is coming from.
Like Robert, another regular and insightful contributor, I learn a lot about MAGA from Frank. And understanding is the beginning of ... hmmm.
Well, I enjoy writing these articles (finding great pics is the most fun part) and I thoroughly enjoy the comments of everyone. Free Speech rules supreme here. Even for delusional Trump-lovers.
And bring a sense of humor; how else will we survive?
For me, the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that Frank thinks that I'M delusional, that Dems are delusion, and that he sees the facts and truth. So the question is (here and all across America): how do we bridge this divide, when each side thinks the other side is delusional, and has an avalanche of "facts" (or "alternative facts") to back it our positions?
The discussion here clearly demonstrates this dilemma.
So how do we find any solutions to very real problems when each side has a different vision of reality, and each side thinks the other side is delusional?
It's a stark dilemma facing the country as a future-determining election bears down on us.
Awe... so sad for lefties, liberals and Democrats that their reliable establishment Republicans are no longer hoisting the tired old lie of Trump causing a Jan-6 insurrection. Yeah, those bearded construction workers and old ladies with their flags and signs where sure a threat to take over the country. It is fascinating reviewing this from the outside and getting educated in the process of media-inflamed mass psychosis. The failure of people to accept that the old GOP establishment Regime lie is over is gonna cause another We Will Resist insurrection and murderous leftist national riots again where poor neighborhoods are burned to the ground!
I think it's worthwhile looking carefully at Frank's post. We've all seen scores of times the many videos of violence on January 6. Frank has recast this as "bearded construction workers and old ladies with flags and signs." Then he asserts that those in the GOP who were like Cheney or 2021 McConnell were creating a "GOP establishment Regime lie" that the January 6 violence occurred.
How has Frank reconfigured reality? He starts by denying the violence actually occurred (I don't know whether he's ever actually seen the videos--if so, perhaps he's decided they are deep fakes), and then dismisses the Republicans who acknowledge the facts by deriding them ("establishment Regime") and imagining they had a project to induce "mass psychosis." This is precisely the way conspiracy theories work: they select which facts to accept or deny and invent a reality that will confirm the explanatory theory they have constructed. You can't break into it. It is a worldview perpetually reconfiguring itself to confirm its own reality and deny known facts, *no matter how thoroughly they are documented.* Those facts are dismissed as "fake" a priori, with the explanatory theory reconfigured in any way necessary to support that assertion. What Trump grasped from the outset was that he could build on his celebrity popularity only if he created a reality of "alternative facts" (a term his own press spokesperson coined) and re-labeled actual facts as "fake news." It worked!
Frank also deploys the "both sides" approach, gesturing to the 2020 Floyd riots. The Floyd demonstrations did indeed result in violent riots that no one should condone in several large cities, including Minneapolis and Seattle. It's important never to deny or minimize those events. But they had nothing to do with January 6, and January 6, 2021 did *not* result in "leftwing national riots." There is no connection. What Frank calls the "GOP establishment regime lie" concerned events that happened six months after the summer 2020 post-demonstration riots. Frank is simply throwing up anything he thinks has some form of resonance to obscure the issue, which is the sort of behavior we expect from those who have become invested in a baseless conspiracy theory.
This is the sort of thinking *all* of us engage in when our most cherished beliefs are seriously challenged. It's not Frank's fault. He has been wooed by a cult, fallen into its dogma, and has no way out. None of us here in an online forum can possibly reach him, but we can learn from him.
I see three new replies have appeared while I've been typing. I'm going to bet that at least two try to argue with Frank. *There is nothing to be gained.* But remember, there but for the grace of God go we: we're all subject to this type of group delusion--and I haven't the slightest doubt that Frank thinks all of us are the ones suffering group delusion. That's why there's no way in for us, no way to get him out. Only someone he knows and trusts might have a chance, and then only if Frank's basic intelligence had already begun to nag him about the absurdity of the ideas he has adopted, or the bizarre behavior of those he sees as his allies.
... which means that a) if Trump wins, the whole nation falls under the leadership of a delusional regime built on lies, or b) if Biden wins, half the nation will believe they've been "robbed" which sets the stage for more violence. Both scary scenarios, and I don't see any mass-deprogramming in sight.
The only hope I do see will come from a massive Blue Wave that wins enough branches of gov't (state and federal) to maintain law and order; because a narrow squeaker win by Dems will immediately be challenged. But, as of today, I don't see a Blue-nami in the forecast.
Except - if abortion becomes the ballot question, and women (the largest voting block) find common ground and motivation to sweep away the regressive forces that threaten their physical freedoms.
LOL. Did I deny that there was violence? Absolutely not. But no guns or knives. And only a minority of hotheads where violent. The rest were just protestors and the Democrat lawfare system abused many of them. The only gun violence was a Democrat cop friend of Nancy Pelosi killing an unarmed small female veteran. Compared to the Democrat-sanctioned violence from the proceeding 18 months of BLM and Antifa it is laughable how you elite coastal and big city liberals keep up the charade of Jan-6 being anything other than a justified protest over election irregularities (of which there were many) with the standard number of hotheads going too far.
But "insurrection"? LOL. You people think you are serious, but you demonstrate only irrational hysteria.
Just look at the current antisemitic Democrat campus brat violence against cops, pushing down barriers and breaking into buildings to occupy them. Oohhh that must be an INSURRECTION!" The hypocrisy is so transparent and blatant I make the excuse for you that your media feeds are propaganda keeping you blind to reality. Otherwise there is no excuse and a vile explanation is warranted.
Thanks, Frank. I appreciate the response.
By the way, I have no sympathy for pro-Palestinian protesters who use violent tactics, but I haven't seen any assaults against cops. Had they, though, it would not be an "insurrection," because it would not have been an attempt to overthrow a government. The Jan. 6 violence was an attempt to nullify the election of a new government executive and force the installation of a different government executive, that's why it's referred to as an "insurrection," rather than just a violent protest. When "the standard number of hotheads" set a police car on fire it's a crime, and a serious one--liberals should never excuse it. When "the standard number of hotheads" (and a lot more than in most or all of the local Floyd riots) break into the Capitol and search for legislators to threaten that's an insurrection, and no one should wave that away either.
By the way, where I live the pro-Palestinian demonstrators were entirely peaceful, as even law enforcement officials agree. Nevertheless, the state police wrestled many to the ground, injuring several, arresting them on charges that were uniformly dismissed by the courts. The captain in charge justified the arrests by saying their protest constituted "hate speech," which he asserted was "not protected by the First Amendment." (So much for law enforcement understanding of the Constitution.) At UCLA the violence was enacted against the student protesters whole police stood and watched. If you look at Columbia you'll draw one set of lessons; at UCLA you'll draw another. It's not really germane to the Jan. 6 matter, but it does illustrate how complex our politics and civic behavior has become.
"media feeds are propaganda keeping you blind to reality"
well, there's truth to that paradigm, but the question is: who is being blinded by whose media?
Frank, here's a serious question: is it possible that Trump-supporters are being blinded by their own media feeds? Can you admit that's a possibility?
Some.
I live in a liberal college town in a blue state, but have a business in a rural part of the state and have extended family in the Midwest where my parents are from and I was from until age 14.
I have many, many friends on both sides of politics. I talk to most of them. I am someone that got to my positions in life never thinking I was the smartest guy in the room, never imagining that I know everything, and always assuming I have blind spots and can learn.
It is why I subscribe to publications that lean both left and right. When my community of liberals takes a position different than mine, I want to understand what I am missing.
Now I have a PHD in liberal studies and my conclusion is that liberals in general engage in half circle thinking... incomplete rational thought. They run through arguments that deliver good feelings and then stop doing math. They cannot accept a rational choice that makes them feel bad... unless forced and then they become resentful even if the choice is proven accurate.
My experience with conservatives and pklitics is that they are more pragmatic, more logical, less prone to allowing their emotions drive their choices.
I think some of this difference has been explained well by Haidt.
However I am bored talking to people that have my views. I still hold out hope that I engage with a liberal that can talk about his/her political ideas and explain why they are better than mine.
But today liberals are just full of spite, invective and vitriol calling everyone that does not agree with them the most vile of names and raging to character assassinate or worse anyone that failes to frog march to the drum beat of their radical pagan ideology.
I might be open to that radical pagan ideology if it demonstrated success and real progress. But just using my college town... the liberals have made it a mess.
thanks for that honest reply.
Part of the problem, on both sides, is the stereotyping (and demonizing) of each other. You aren't like all the other MAGAs, and I'm not like all the other Liberal/Dems.
We both see flaws and faults on both sides, but it's dangerous to generalize from our particular situations to the whole nation.
I believe the former "fringes" on both sides are getting way too much attention (and power) while that great swath of "normal people in the middle" just want to get on with their lives and see improvements for their families.
Whatever happened on Jan.6 or BLM riots or congressional hearings doesn't reflect or represent the whole country - you and I wouldn't have participated in any of these events, and I think you and I are more representative of the wider population than the bone-heads on each side.
Which leads a lot of folks to 3rd party candidates, but they can't win and will severely affect the final outcome, so they aren't representative either.
In the end it comes down to rational people choosing the lesser evil. In my case, for all of Biden's flaws, I see him as a far lesser evil than the narcissistic insatiably needy Trump.
Put another way, I think Biden still has hopes to make the country a more perfect union, while Trump is ONLY in it for himself.
Here is my problem condensed. My professional background is solving big organizational problems. I have a business degree specialized in organizational behavior. I have certifications in project management. I often can see the clear path to a future state if progress.
I can also often see the negative future consequences for many policies and decisions. When I talk to and work with Republican controlled communities, there is much more alignment with these things... more interest in discussing the... more head nodding in meetings... more pragmatism and real math. In my liberal community many of the policies are damaging to the future. There is a weird scarcity mindset and stasis attitudes, while claiming progressive ideas that are really often destructive.
Of course there are corrupt and low capability politicians and voters in every community on both sides. But my view is that Democrats are broken. They are committed to burning down everything to retain power. Today I went to the grocery store when it opened at 7 am and the employees were waiting for the police to remove two homeless men camped in the entrance, one unconscious from a substance and another screaming at everyone. I left and drove to the city 15 minutes away that is run by Republicans. I went to Costco... the voters in the liberal city rejected it in their community even though they all drive there to shop. The tax base is too little. The roads and parks are not maintained. We have too few cops and with ordinances where they commit deal with all the homeless. The public schools are suffering enrollment drops because the voters will not allow enough housing development and young families cannot afford to live here, and there are few good jobs for young professionals except the university. The city council has a packed room to pass a condemnation of Israel, and to approve some new LGBT? commitment, but none of the fiscal problems get addresses except yet another sales or property tax supplemental attempt... when the city is already one of the highest taxed in the state.
The state has an insurance crisis along with a $70 billion budget deficit after having a $38 billion budget surplus 18 months ago. Prop 203 pushed by the Democrats to force auto insurers to comply with their liberal ideas chased away many of the insurers... and the took ALL of the insurance products with them.
I have a list a mile long of these types of bonehead policies and ideas that keep making things worse for the average resident... but apparently provide some juice to the feel-good addicted liberal brain.
My assessment over all the years dealing with all this is simple. Liberals have taken over the Democrat party and pursue Karen power... but they are wired as the least capable to make effective policy and decisions. They are emotional rather than pragmatic. We need liberals to soften hard policies of unfeeling Republicans, but their dominance of Democrat party is taking us all down.
I keep hoping to see real pragmatists in the Democrat hive, but it seems that there are none... they have all joined in the destructive cultural weirdness and private economy scarcity mindset and divisive overheated emotional reactions about everything.
Frank, you're actually corroborating Robert's analysis.
The Jan.6 violence, the "fake electors" scheme, the guilty pleas of dozens of Trump's lawyers and advisors - is there no way you can acknowledge an organized attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?
To deny all that is to prove Robert's point - that Trump supporters are hopelessly lost in an echo chamber of re-affirming delusions. Wherever you get your "news", surely you have seen the real footage of Jan.6, which means you know what happened, but somehow can't admit it.
If you've seen the original (Broderick Crawford) movie of "All the King's Men" - story of self-made dictator of Louisiana Huey Long - someone asks a Judge how so many people can fall for Long's con, and the Judge says they believe him because "they want it to be true, and they can't admit they made a mistake."
"is there no way you can acknowledge an organized attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power?"
Sure. Russiagate. The election shenanigans in swing state big city districts run by Democrats. The FBI and media lies about Hunter's laptop. The Jan-6 show trials. Nancy Pelosi refusing to allow the National Guard on Jan-6. but then after when old Joe was in place. The organized WE WILL RESIST marches. The lawfare cases against Trump from Democrat AGs in blue states (case that only came up because he is a threat to Democrat politics). The threats of court packing. The threats against SCOTUS judges. The Twitter Files and the Democrat censorship industrial complex. Yes, there is a ton of organized attempt to prevent peaceful transfer of power... and to corrupt and threaten democracy. It is all Democrat caused.
Just watch when Trump wins and the GOP takes back the legislature. You lefties will lose your minds and start protesting WE WILL RESIST... and violence will be justified then.
AW, please note that Frank can't respond on the "peaceful transfer of power" issue. There is no instance of Democrats using violence to block the transfer of power issue so we get a litany of examples that do not concern violence.
You have to remember that the Big Lie conspiracy theory holds that the Democrats subvert the transfer of power by secret means ("shenanigans," in Frank's terms--it was certainly the case in some Democratic cities 60 years ago, and, of course, routinely in the South for a century). If you buy into the conspiracy theory, everything in Frank's message makes sense: the Mueller investigation (which did not exonerate Trump), media downplaying of the laptop, the fiction about Pelosi and the National Guard (remember, fiction is just an "alternative fact" and every bit as valid as an actual fact), organized street protests, the brief discussion of adding SCOTUS seats--all of it is the moral (or actual) equivalent of the violent breach of the Capitol in an effort to force the legislature to disqualify the election results. And because *everything* the Democrats do can be cast in this light, no debunking can ever end it. Frank's arsenal of "evidence" is endless, and the MAGA spokespeople fantasize more of it every day. (Don't forget: Biden "tried to assassinate" Trump at Mar-a-Lago!!! The apophenic machine is like AI: it is an endless font of empty content meant to soothe subscribers.)
But Frank gets points for uncovering the evil treasonous plot involving GEORGE SOROS and HUNTER BIDEN'S LAPTOP.
Volumes will be written, pods will be cast, Steve Bannon will produce the movie:
"George Soros and the Biden Laptop: the Plot to Destroy America."
And Trump will sell NFT time-shares/trading cards at $99.
Well done Frank, you got to bottom of America's problems.
well, like Robert says, there's a lot we can learn from your posts, Frank.
You see your perspective clearly, and have gathered the evidence to support it. So you can't be wrong and always have the right answer. And you honestly believe what you're saying and believe you're on the right side. And a patriot. And a truth-teller.
But beware the cloak of infallibility!
No one is infallible, Frank. No one is beyond being wrong, mistaken, misled.
So, Frank, you're still living under the delusion that there was no violent attack on the Capitol on Jan.6? Just a peaceful walk-through - no broken windows, no deaths, no chants of Hang Mike Pence, no congressmen and senators hiding, no Josh Hawley running for his life?
Or: are you living under the delusion that it happened but it was all a false flag operation with Antifa and BLM and the FBI dressed up like MAGA?
They're mutually exclusive, so which delusion are you picking today?
As for "media-inflamed mass psychosis" - are you referring to FOX's endless "rigged election" lies fuelling MAGA-madness? Led by a certifiable psychopath who's got you all conned into a Trump Trance?
I dare you to take 5 minutes and take the "Is Trump a Psychopath?" test:
https://neofascism.substack.com/p/is-donald-trump-a-psychopath
I don't watch Fox anything and I am a Trump supporter. Where do you think I am getting my biased MAGA information? I subscribe to your Substack. I read the NYT and LA Times.
Well you made my day, Frank! My substack in the same sentence as the NYT and LA Times. I've made the big time!
And by the way, you're always welcome here. I enjoy your comments. It's a civil conversation with no name calling (although Trump supporters are clearly delusional).
But we've both been through some serious medical challenges and we're still here alive and kicking, and banging the drum for what we believe is right.
So maybe it all comes down to an old Bob Dylan line:
"you're right from your side, and I'm right from mine
we're just one too many mornings, and a thousand miles behind."
Whoever wins, I hope America settles down into some kind of "normal" and we start dealing with (and solving!) the real issues.
So Abraham, do the actions of Micah Xavier Johnson and Stephan Cannon and a handful other other violent idiots define the entire BLM protest period, or are there always a handful of violence-prone idiots to almost every large gathering of people protesting what they see as injustice?
Maybe you think that white people should not be allowed to protest unless they are liberals?
I agree with the implications of Frank's comment here. Johnson's violence was prompted by ideology; Cannon's by simple greed. We need to distinguish between violence perpetrated by protesters and violence perpetrated by ordinary criminals who find the disruptions of protests a good theater for them to act.
The topic is the January 6 protests and Trump's role encouraging them. The majority of Jan. 6 protesters were not violent. But hundreds were, and they were violent in the context of the protests, attacking and beating police, vandalizing Capitol offices, and threatening members of congress and the Vice President as part of their protest. Trump, like many of us, watched these scenes unfold on television; unlike us, he had the power to stop the violence, and he knew it. He declined to do so. But Frank considers these facts to be a "GOP establishment Regime" lie. Frank's perfectly intelligent: he can see that in the case of the Floyd riots at least some of the violence had no connection to the demonstrations. But he cannot see that an example like Stephen Cannon has no relevance to the case. (Johnson's violence is also irrelevant, not because he was not ideologically motivated, but because he acted independently, without regard to the disruptions of a demonstration. Robert Bowers and Dylann Roof would be parallels on the Right.)
The Democrats have an entire industrial complex of government officials, media connections and a sea of NGOs that encourage protests. The GOP has never taken that approach and thus never developed the infrastructure. Trump never did encourage violence and is quoted encouraging a peaceful march and protest. But he did use his personal influence to motivate the crowd and some went too far.
Joe Biden does not have to do the same because he has the entire Democrat influence industry to do it for him.
So the comparison is unfair and frankly intellectually dishonest because I know you and others know better. You know that the Democrats can organize through their well established protest and riot network. And you don't get to excuse that those violent are somehow NOT YOUR BIDEN PEOPLE while claiming that those that got violent on Jan-6 ARE THOSE TRUMP PEOPLE! The evidence is that many of the trouble-makers were FBI plants and Democrat NGO plants (Soros money paid thugs).
Aha! George Soros did it! I was waiting for that one; could have bet on it.
But what about Hunter Biden's laptop? Surely that played a large part in it? Why else would Congress spend months investigating Hunter Biden's laptop?
Between George Soros and Hunter's laptop, the crime is solved!
QED!
Yeah, Soros and FBI plants are conspiracy theory stuff. Nothing to be done about them. But Frank is correct that Democratic-affiliated non-profits are far more likely to use organization of public protests as a method than GOP non-profits (although the Committee to Stop the Steal was a MAGA non-profit central to Jan. 6).
Because of the Floyd protests, Frank will always claim that the Democratic non-profits sponsor a "protest and riot" network. Just as the street riots of the late 1960s, the Rodney King riots, and the Ferguson BLM-related riots provided talking points (some legitimate) and conspiracy theory fodder to the Right, the Floyd protest riots came to completely overshadow the protests themselves. Having participated in civil rights street protests and early antiwar protests in the mid-1960s, I hate to say it but I think this form of protest is rarely a wise tactic for these reasons.
The tactical clumsiness of Democrats is well illustrated by the fact that George Soros has apparently expended billions of dollars in nefarious schemes to encourage lawless activity--so much so that almost everything Democrats do is secretly funded by him--and has really little to show for it, while Harlan Crow skillfully invested just a million or so in successfully suborning a SCOTUS justice with really productive results. We need to replace Soros with Democratic Crows! (And a few Democratic Kochs, too--the Heritage Foundation is the source of the other five Conservative justices.)
The list of those profiles is long! Do you, and does anyone, realize that the plan is to literally weaponize our citizenry who align themselves with Trump's "power" to provide excessive access to machine gunning down those who are rightfully elected? The Alito couple and the Thomas couple and those in Congress who've always been beyond the pale are salivating over the destruction of anyone standing in the way of their fascist belief system. And, Proud Boys, 3 %ters, etc...still all training.
Sorry, Abraham, but you're the first one I'm sharing this insight with. Horrific, but I calmly sense, the truth of their intent. Trump has been shaping this since way before his inaugural address about "American carnage." Many have been preparing for this "war" and "bloodbath" and we know the cast of characters. Putin has schooled him.
[should I erase all of this??? or not?]
We need to note that Trump promises a bloodbath if he loses and retribution if he wins. TRUMP=VIOLENCE IN AMERICA WIN OR LOSE.
The SCOTUS decisions on guns are part of the frightening scenario for deadly violence
DK, that's why I started this site a couple years ago: to raise the alarm, to call a warning to the underlying psychology of Trump's MAGA movement. It's all been a prelude to fascism. I call it "neo"-fascism because it's new slogans and new flags and new leaders, but it all ends up in the same place: fear, intimidation, retribution and violence.
Only a massive Blue Wave in November can stop this ugly dangerous threat to America. The barbarians are at the gate, and the gate keepers are traitors.
Perilous times, but voters can (and must) save America in November.
don’t erase it, Valerie; express your outrage. The threat to democracy is real for those willing to see it. These Republican and MAGA cowards, lusting for power, are only in it for themselves. It’s time to call them out.
More important though, it’s time to get out the vote. Bigly.
Hello Abraham. So glad I saw this exchange. Agreed re: your insights. Also agreed re: Valerie's assertion. She is a friend from elsewhere in Substack.
I'll be back and promise try and take it easy on FL, per your stated preference for civil discourse.
welcome Adam. Frank is a founding father (so to speak) of this site, and though we differ 180° on most things, we agree 100% on having a civil discourse to at least try and understand where each is coming from.
Like Robert, another regular and insightful contributor, I learn a lot about MAGA from Frank. And understanding is the beginning of ... hmmm.
Well, I enjoy writing these articles (finding great pics is the most fun part) and I thoroughly enjoy the comments of everyone. Free Speech rules supreme here. Even for delusional Trump-lovers.
And bring a sense of humor; how else will we survive?
Oh, I have a wicked sense of humor mister. Pleased to meecha. Good night.